01	Dead Silence						04:02
	02	Behold The Man						04:26
	03	This Weird Wind						08:03
	04	Les Etudes d'Organism						14:01
	05	Maelstrom						03:34
	06	The Aesthete						04:38
	07	Kingdom Come						13:44

In Extremis CD - 1998 - Cuneiform.
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Mike Johnson: guitars
Mark Harris: woodwinds
David Willey: bass, accordian
David Kerman: drums
Shane Hotle: keyboards
Deborah Perry: vocals
also appearing:
Bob Drake: bass, voice
Sanjay Kumar: keyboards
Mark Fuller: drums



Thinking Plague: In Extremis
Cuneiform (rune 113)
USA 1998

Mike Johnson, electric, acoustic, nylon string, 12-string, and lap steel guitars, synthesizers, computer sequencing; David Kerman, drums, percussion; Mark Harris, soprano, alto, tenor, and baritone saxes, clarinet, flute, bass clarinet; Deborah Perry, voice; Dave Willey, bass guitar, accordian; Shane Hotle, piano, synthesizers, mellotron; Bob Drake, bass guitar, voice, violin, electric piano, banjo; with Kirk Jameson, bass; Kim Marsh, piano, synthesizers; Sanjay Kumar, synthesizers; Scott Brazieal, piano, synthesizers; Mark Fuller, drums; Katie Cox, violins; Mike Fitzmaurice, double-bass, erhu; Rick Benjamin, trombone


Jon Byrne:
I should say first off that this album is my first brush with the progressive subgenre known as RIO (Rock In Opposition - to what I'm not really sure). I had always been a bit scared to venture into this area, given the music's reputation as "unmelodic" or "difficult" to listen to. But I heard so much about Thinking Plague, not the least of which being their polarizing performance at ProgDay last year (apparently you either ran from the room or loved them), that I decided to give them a shot. I'm glad I did.
The fact is, most of In Extremis isn't quite as weird as I thought it would be. The music here is often jagged dissonant and oppressively rhythmic, grabbing you by the neck and jerking you from here to there and back again with alarming effect. Yet, in the middle of that, there is a great deal of honest beauty and power in the music. Surely, it ain't for everyone: there's nothing that regularly resembles a "beat" and anyone trying to dance to it would probably be committed to a rubber room.
Given all that, however, I have to say that I reject the idea that Thinking Plague's work is not melodic. Granted, they're lacking in the sort of long extended melodic arrangements characteristic of classic Genesis or Marillion. There are a lot of bits that stick in your head, however, even if you don't necessarily walk from the room humming the chorus. We're talking a less focused melody here, one that doesn't play by the traditional rules of form and development.
The album begins with a bang, "Dead Silence", a great track with a very cool female lead vocal. Vocalist Deborah Perry manages to dart from pitch to pitch, almost at random, while retaining a crystal clarity that allows the lyrics themselves to come through. Another early high point is "This Weird Wind" which, probably intentionally, sounds a bit like what Yes might be like these days if they weren't obsessed with producing another 90125.
The center of the album, however, is "Les Etudes de Organisms", a massive epic of power, intensity, and humor. Dark and driving passages give way to a truly bizarre middle sections that puts the prog spin on klezmer, circus music, and bad horror film scores. There's even a bit that reminds me of an old Madness tune! As silly as that may sound, nothing hangs around too long to go from being clever to just getting on your nerves. It's a great effect, overall, and lends to the piece's uniqueness.
The rest of the album doesn't quite live up to the first half. The other epic length cut, "Kingdom Come", is a bit too disjointed and meanders too much for my taste. The other tracks work well, but don't quite pack as much punch as the earlier ones.
In the end, In Extremis is a very interesting and satisfying album. No, it is not full of instantly memorable bits that you will hum the next day at work. But, if you're willing to throw yourself in head first and not look back, you're in for a treat. If this what RIO is like, I need to check out some more.

Bob Eichler:
I got my first taste of Thinking Plague at the first NEARfest, where I bought In Extremis in preparation for their set at ProgDay '99. Sitting in the NEARfest vendor room, I popped In Extremis into my portable CD player, heard the chugging guitar and opening vocals of "Dead Silence", and was immediately hooked. The band has been described as "accessible RIO", which seems like a contradiction in terms but really is true for Thinking Plague. The music manages to be experimental and yet catchy at the same time. The plaintive vocals, which often jump from octave to octave and sometimes seem entirely unrelated to the music tend to put some people off, but they sound wonderful to me. For those who don't like the band on first listen, give them a chance to grow on you. A friend of mine hated their ProgDay set, but decided to buy In Extremis anyway. A month later, he was taking back everything bad he had said and raving about how great the album was.
My favorite tracks are the aforementioned "Dead Silence" and the longest track on the album, "Les Etudes D'Organism". The former seems like it could stand a chance of being a hit single, despite its oddness. The latter takes off around the three minute mark into a ten minute long, energetic, cartoonish whirlwind of music. If you're the type who uses the term "circus music" as an insult, you might not like this section. But it comes as close to my idea of perfect prog as anything I've ever heard.
Another album highlight is the Yes parody (tribute?) "This Weird Wind", which features vocalist Bob Drake doing some very Andersonish vocals, and a guitar lick lifted directly from "Awaken". The last two tracks on the album don't hold my interest quite as much as the others, due to their long stretches of dark and moody atmosphere in which not much seems to happen.
Overall though, this album is highly recommended, as is their earlier album In This Life. Also, some of the band members are involved in a side project called Hamster Theater. Their Siege on Hamburger City album is even more upbeat and accessible than the first half of In Extremis, and a worthwhile purchase if you're looking for more from these guys. And if you get a chance to see either band play live, definitely go for it.

Jon Fry:
Many experimental bands release music that is daring but fails to hold up after repeated listens. I believe that this is due to these groups spending too much time being weird and intellectual, and too little time writing interesting music. Thinking Plague have triumphed with In Extremis in creating an album that both challenges and attracts the listener at the same time. The first time I heard the group (live, actually) I made the mistake of seeing their music as dark and foreboding. After listening to this album a few times, however, I realized that Thinking Plague's music isn't dark at all; it's bizarre, all right, but also almost celebratory, particularly in tracks like "Les Etudes D'Organism" and "This Weird Wind". As a fan of upbeat rock, I find much to enjoy about In Extremis. It's an album that is not easily summarized, but here's a try: varied strange, intricate compositions that are played with great precision and a lot of heart. If you're not into avant-garde music (as I am not), I would recommend that you don't simply dismiss this album - this work has a lot to offer for more mainstream progressive fans as well.

Mark Gaines:
Listening to RIO may be for many an experience in consternation best forgotten, while for others it is a palatial palace of wonderment and delight. Time changes galore, instrumentation in all directions, and rarely a recognized melodic structure within listening distance. One must approach said musical event with some sort of reverent dedication in hopes of making sense of it all. Recalling my first encounter with Henry Cow in 1972, I simply never gave up searching for that one unifying moment where enlightenment and insight led to a transformational moment of amazement and appreciation and now consider myself amongst the Cow's constituency of dedicated listeners. Now here we are in 1998 and Thinking Plague have just released something called In Extremis, and I find myself listening with the same amount of enthusiasm that transformed my experiences of 1972. In Extremis is, quite simply put, an awe-inspiring continuation in experimental purity, executed with a musical depth and magnitude in intuitive abilities from all involved, that place the crown of "classic" upon its title. Mike Johnson and company have taken the foundations of every definable form of music, shaken it, stirred it, and mixed it into a cohesive and rapturous listening experience, making it one of the most thought provoking and stimulating releases of this year, bar none. In order for RIO to become palatable for my digestion it must contain elements of a very pronounced bass and drum pattern that allows the other various instrumentation to soar to expressive forms of flight, and David Kerman along with Mark Harris supply more than enough, taking it even further out and into areas less explored, building into one monstrous force. Deborah Perry's vocal presentations weave pleasantly throughout, complimenting the ambient atmosphere to which it is attached. With a potpourri of musical instruments at hand, Mike Johnson creates a canvas with such potential energies, it will simply pull you into its vortex of sounds, uniting soul, mind and spirit into one resounding neverending bliss, reshaping and enhancing your aural abilities, giving you new ears to hear with. The centerpiece of this seven track epic is "Les Etudes d'Organism", containing a whirling, spiraling firestorm of creativity, picking you up and dropping you in the middle of nowhere, welcoming you to the outer limits of the inner mind. A stellar performance by all involved, this piece of music stands up to any of the classics of the genre, past as well as present. Ten years the predecessor to In This Life, In Extremis is a work that has finally surfaced for all to behold and become enthralled in its beauty and brilliance. I only hope Mike Johnson doesn't take as long with the next installment. But for now In Extremis holds court in my CD player as well as in my enjoyment and appreciation for musical genius such as this. In Extremis is a good beginning point for anyone wanting to experience RIO at its most elegantly performed heights or for any of those already seasoned in its finite possibilities. One not to be missed.

Steve Hegede:
I hate to start this review using the word "wow". But here it goes...wow! In Extremis is the latest album from Thinking Plague, and it is quite a treat. I'll try to describe the music from the bottom up to hopefully give you an idea of their sound. First off, the drum and bass work on this album is top-notch. Dave Kerman and Bob Drake work themselves into complex grooves that are so catchy, that they sometimes have a strange danceable-quality to them (if you are also able to dance to some of Zappa's music). Somehow they also manage to create a layer of sound that is separate, yet parallel, to what the other musicians are playing. In fact, most listeners will be amazed at the amount of layers in this music. Each musician seems to be in their separate world but somehow the colliding sounds fit perfectly together. Anyway, over the rhythm-layer we get into some very interesting use of classical and rock instruments. The melodies, and flurries of counter-melodies, seem influenced by Schoenberg and Boulez's 12-tone music. Guitarist Mike Johnson leads with his excellent dissonant guitar work, but he is closely followed by dozens of instruments which include piano, clarinet, flute, and violin. The chords created by the various instruments are densely dissonant (but not ugly), and have an Edgar Varese-quality to them. I even noticed microtonal influences in a number of sections which is great to hear in rock. Now this might sound like too much for some, but the band has a talent for creating hooks that remain locked in your head long after the album is done. In my opinion, singer Deborah Perry has an important role for making this musically complex album accessible to a progressive rock audience. Her vocal lines are dissonant, and 12-tone based. Yet her delivery has an avant-pop quality to it, and the vocals sound strangely beautiful even to someone who is unfamiliar with modern classical. A couple highlights include the opening track "Dead Silence" which is a tour-de-force and features catchy vocals and lyrics. "Les Etudes D'Organism" is a 14-minute epic that features a section influenced by early circus music. But it comes off sounding like circus music composed by Schoenberg. The remaining tracks each explore new ground, unexplored sounds, and are strong compositions. Overall, I would recommend In Extremis to musically adventurous prog fans. But if your also looking for an introduction to avant-garde music, RIO, and even 20th century modern classical this is the perfect CD to start with.

Sean McFee:
Possibly the best release of 1998. In Extremis is Thinking Plague's return after a lengthy absence, and shows a band which has not deteriorated in quality over time. The album opener "Dead Silence" is practically an avant-prog single, starting with catchy riffage on guitar and descending into a cacophony of sounds about halfway through. The lyrics are dark and beautiful. "Behold the Man" and "Kingdom Come" continue the dark lyrical themes. As with "Dead Silence", "Behold the Man" strengthens the quality of the dissonant passages by alternating them with fairly normal guitar riffage. "This Weird Wind" allows former Plague member Bob Drake to contribute on bass, violin and his wonderful vocals, which are often eerily similar to Jon Anderson's. "Les Etudes d'Organism", meanwhile, is a fairly playful jam and seems like a thematic reworking of "Organism" from In This Life.
Compared to In This Life this album seems somewhat moodier and more sinister. Compositionally it might be the most advanced album yet, and there's almost always something going on in the background that is barely discernable right away and must be listened for. Despite the intricacies, I feel that fans of more safe and conventional fare are going to have trouble with something this daunting. People who love and accept News From Babel, 5uu's and similar bands will find this right up their alley.

Gary Varney:
The menacing cover artwork of In Extremis - what appears to be a tornado forming over a cheerless landscape - foreshadows the music within: a roiling, tireless brew of chaotic dissonance. In fact, upon my first several listenings I couldn't shake the impression that these seven songs had once started out "normal" when they were being composed, but then that twister on the cover blew through the studio and randomly mixed up all the notes.
Upon my first listening I literally laughed out loud at this silliness, and I bemoaned wasting my thirteen bucks in so foolish a manner. It seemed like while the guitarist was busy cranking out "Dead Silence," the keyboardist rebelled by performing "Behold the Man," and the woodwinds player accidentally brought the sheet music for "Kingdom Come"! But subsequent auditions gradually untangled the web of "random noise," revealing a gem of startling beauty. Finally the musicians sounded in concert with each other v is that because they truly are, or is it an illusion due to my now strong familiarity with the material? I don't know. In any event it works, and I've never gotten bored with with this CD.
"Les Etudes d'Organism," the centerpiece of the album, is a favorite track. It opens with possessed woodwinds spinning out of control and some Frippy guitar, then uses some "Revolution 9"-ish weirdness to segue into the frenetic, cheery, "psychocircus" section. With squiggly saxes, belching horns, and squawking accordions, it's easy to imagine that mentally disturbed clowns have appropriated Thinking Plague's instruments. Suddenly there's a hairpin turn, and the mood becomes so dark and spooky I suspect those insane clowns must have killed someone. Then after some peculiar squawking and distant laughing females, pretty chimes fade out to the end... and the listener is drained.
In Extremis is a stressful album. But it can be beautiful at the same time - dissonant yet melodic, disturbing yet playful. Try it.

Brandon Wu:
While I am not as unconditionally taken by this disc as some (see above :), it is definitely a worthy release. Fans of avant-prog of pretty much any kind will get a kick out of this one, with its overall very dark and brooding atmosphere surrounding a single playful and wacky composition ("Les Etudes d'Organism"). All the trademarks of RIO/avant-prog are here: disjointed melodies, themes that don't last for more than a few bars before fragmenting, lots of harmonic complexities, wacky vocals, diverse orchestration, and so on. The lyrics are also worthy of note, as they are in large part neither written nor sung like song lyrics; I wonder how well they'd work as poetry. In any case, I find myself unable to get extremely pumped about this kind of music, but once in a while I get into a certain mood for avant-prog, and this is usually what I pop into the player. Sorting through the apparent chaos and making sense of it all is a great reward for listening closely - if this is the kind of thing that appeals to you, you should definitely get this one ASAP. If you're looking to begin exploring modern avant-prog, this makes a pretty good place to start.


joe

In Extremis marked the return after a lengthy hiatus from Thinking Plague, an adventurous band based in Colorado and led by guitarist/composer Mike Johnson. It was recorded over the course of six years, and for all its hits and misses, does not disappoint.
Placed up front and center, "Dead Silence" represents the most accessible track, to get listeners accustomed to the band's avant sound and Deborah Perry's vocals. The next two tracks, however, are the high points of the album. "Behold the Man" is breathtaking stuff, with ping-ponging guitar riffs and an absolutely brilliant detour into a spiraling vortex (you'll know it when you hear it). "This Weird Wind" features vocals by bassist Bob Drake, sounding somewhat like Perry Farrell. Here, the rich, acoustic guitar tapestries weaved by Johnson's lend considerably unique warmth to the band's sound that other R.I.O. efforts lack. The second half of the album is good, but not quite as strong. The ferocious opening to "Les Etudes D'Organism" is something I could have listened to for much longer than it lasts, but it instead deflates into cartoon music and Ska in space.

Deborah Perry does an exemplary job handling the tricky vocals, though generally that style of melody (e.g., the dot-DASH-dot-DASH opening up "Dead Silence"), common to much of R.I.O., isn't to my taste. I prefer the vocals during their broader moments, such as near the ending of "Behold the Man" or the ominous wall of harmonies closing "This Weird Wind." Also, Johnson's lyrics can steer a bit uncomfortably close to Neil Peart territory (e.g., "Maelstrom"). To me, the best lyrics are from Drake on "This Weird Wind," who dispenses with Attack of the Intermediate English Vocab Words philosophizing and instead just gets as blissfully whacked out as Jon Anderson's 70s lyrics were (and I wish would still be, dammit).

This is as densely layered an album as you are likely to find, all delivered to you on a silver platter with expert musicianship. Critics will say it's too cluttered, but those who are into 'uncovering' their albums' hidden moments over a long course of time will be sure to love this one. When coupled with the band's 1999 ProgDay appearance, it is no wonder why In Extremis was one of the most deservingly talked about releases to emerge in recent years among the prog community.

6-20-03







Mike Johnson / Thinking Plague

We're extremely proud to present this interview with Mike Johnson, guitarist and composer for Thinking Plague, by far one of the most innovative and enjoyable groups in the current progressive rock scene. The group's latest studio album on Cuneifrom Records, In Extremis, has been touted in many circles as one of the best progressive rock related albums of the 90s. I would be hard pressed to disagree at this point. An extraordinary blend of avant-progressive, RIO and symphonic influences that digs deep over time, as any great album should. Cuneiform have recently re-released the first two Thinking Plague recordings, ...a Thinking Plague and Moonsongs on a 2 on 1 CD entitled Early Plague Years. I finally picked this one up after doing the interview and it is certainly no disappointment, I would certainly urge fans of In Extremis to pick this one up as well. This interview was conducted via e-mail, and Mike went way above and beyond the call of duty in answering these questions, and we certainly want to extend our thanks for his support.


Giant Progweed: Well, to start off how about a brief history of the band? What were your goals musically, and how did you feel your first couple records met your expectations? Were there any bands or artists that particularly inspired you to form Thinking Plague?

Mike Johnson: This will require a long answer, if that's OK. In 1978 I was 26 years old and going to school in Denver, studying music. I happened to see a slip of paper on the bulletin board at a music store, which said something about "seeking guitar player, into Henry Cow, Yes:" etc., or words to that effect. I was amazed to see those kinds of acts grouped together, and I thought I have got to meet these guys. One of them turned out to be Bob Drake, and the other was Mark Bradford whose wife, Sharon, ended up being the first singer in TP some years later. Mark actually also sang one of the songs on our first LP, "Thorns of Blue and Red/The War."

We started a progressive cover band that never got out of the basement. After that, Bob and I recorded several of my somewhat 70s progressive sounding pieces on a four track or by bouncing between cassette decks, but we couldn't find adequate players to form a band. Then, in about 1980 Bob and I became involved actually trying to earn a living playing in a commercial hard rock band - doing everything from Led Zeppelin to Van Halen to the Knack - for almost a year, before it fell apart.

Bob decided to start playing with some local original "new wave" groups. We both pretty much determined to never again play in cover bands of any kind, both of us having done so many times (in my case, on and off since 1966, when I was a Jr. high school kid). Meanwhile we had been making tapes in my basement of our rock band, but also experimenting with improvisational prepared guitars, tape machines, etc. We recorded what I think of as the first Thinking Plague song, a weird little ditty with a touch of King Crimson and a little Art Bears blended, called "Doppelganger." I began to write more things for Bob and I to record in our very 'low-rent' way, in the hopes that we could find some folks to play it live. Our goal was to combine the harder edge of progressive rock, as in Crimson and Yes, with the more modern tonalities and experimental approach as reflected in the work of the Art Bears, our major heroes at the time.

By 1983 we had pulled together a zany luthier and bass player named Harry Fleishman (Fleishman Guitars) whom we forced to play keyboards; Sharon Bradford, who was trained in college to sing and could read music; an old high school friend of mine, Rick Arsenault, on drums; Bob on bass, and me on guitar. Voila: Thinking Plague. Bob and I came up with the name at some point, when we were thinking about ways to combine words in unlikely ways for a name.

The idea was to say something about that sort of existential condition of being unable to stop thinking, analyzing, or otherwise intellectualizing, which causes one to be separated from 'things in themselves', as it were. The kind of alienation one sees in Sartre's Nausea, perhaps. Of course, Bob would give a totally different explanation with which I'd probably agree. That's one of the good things about the name. It has several possible 'entendres' and seemed to fit the music. It also sounded appropriate for the milieu of the early 80s.

So, this proto-TP played a few less than satisfying shows, being booed and catcalled on occasion, before disbanding as a live unit. We were not happy with the quality or style of the live performances. We really wished we could clone ourselves. So, instead of that, we began recording the songs at an 8-track studio recently started up by a friend. It was located in the basement of an old Armor Star building in the stockyards area, hence the name "Packing House Studio." Bob and I played most of the instruments, but we brought Harry in for some of the keyboards (he had more keyboard fingering skills, which isn't saying much), and Sharon sang and wrote one funny little song ("The Taste That Lingers On"), and Mark Bradford sang "Thorns." I don't remember why we didn't just let Sharon sing it: I think we were intrigued by Mark's baritone range. Bob was the drummer, even though he was really a bass player.

We didn't much know what we were doing, and somehow we didn't much care. We tried some weird and silly things. We didn't sweat the technical details too much, and we had fun. Anyway, it took all of 1983 to weasel enough free time - we were broke - at the studio to finish the record. Then in 1984 we had to borrow $600 from my oldest brother to press the only 500 copies of the LP ever made. We called it :a Thinking Plague. Bob personally hand-painted each cover with stencils and spray paint. Low, low low rent! And now, I hear they are collector's items!

If we tried to shop it around, I don't remember it. I doubt it. Too weird. But once we had it pressed, Chris Cutler at Recommended Records in England ordered a big chunk of them for to distribute worldwide, which thrilled us as he and his label were icons of ours. Wayside Music (Cuneiform) also distributed them, as did NMDS, Dutch East India and others. So, we were on the map (a tiny blip).

Nevertheless, Bob and I wanted a new band, and in 1985 we started recording the Moonsongs album. I had been under the influence of Peter Gabriel a little bit, and I wrote the song "Moonsongs," which I intended as a sort of tribal-pagan-environmental-anti-materialistic avant-rock ritual:whew! We employed the services of a 'real' drummer friend Mark Fuller on several tracks, and when Susanne Lewis suddenly returned to Denver from a year in England, we asked her to sing which she did. We'd met her through her early project 'Spray Pals', which had recorded at the Packing House with Bob at the knobs. A real classically trained pianist and synthesist, Eric Moon (a.k.a. Jacobson) joined on keyboards. We brought in some other friends for guest performances on drums and horns.

We released the record on cassette through our friend Arnie Swenson's duping company with whom we partnered to create Endemic Music. Later this became Prolific Records. Then in 1987 we managed to get signed with a new English label, Dead Man's Curve, who released Moonsongs as an LP. We never knew how many they made, nor how many they sold. They went belly up after quickly releasing some 20 artists LPs. We never even got our master back. Again, these are collector's items. But the record was distributed by our friends at Recommended and Wayside. So we stayed on the map.

In 1987 the band had a stint of local live performances, doing showcases in mainly theater-type venues. Bars were out. We actually opened for Sonic Youth. For these shows we added a second keyboardist, Laurence Hawgseth, who also played clarinet. We were already recording the song "Organism", which is the only recording made with both Eric and Laurence. But it was through Laurence that I realized that I wanted reeds in the band, not really in a jazz or New York avant-garde way, but more of a classical and even folky klezmerish way.

Late in '87 Fuller and Moon departed and we made asked Shane Hotel, another classical player, to takeover on keys. Laurence became clarinetist and auxiliary keys man. But he left after we recorded only one or two of the new songs I had written for this new sort of more "folky" - but avant garde Thinking Plague incarnation. So we brought in sax and clarinet player Mark Harris, a colleague of Bob's from another group, the Bruce Odland Big Band - a sort of progressive new wave jazz big band. Mark is still with TP.

In 1988 Chris Cutler came through Denver with Pere Ubu, and I gave him a tape at their show. Three weeks later he wrote me to ask what we planned to do with the material. We said, "Release it on your label," and thus In This Life came out on ReR/Recommended in 1989. We really thought we'd arrived.

Then, as so often happens in life, people's needs and goals pulled us apart, physically. Denver seemed such a backwater at that time. Susanne's own musical goals were not being advanced, and she moved to New York City. Bob, who was hard pressed to keep any food in the cupboard or shoes without holes on his feet - much less pay rent every month, decided to try getting work as a recording engineer in LA, which he did only two weeks after getting there. It was a job as engineer at a very prestigious Hollywood recording studio, Echo Sound. During his time there he recorded acts ranging from Shirley McClane to Ice Cube (on Boyz in the Hood).

Meanwhile, Bob hooked up with Dave Kerman of 5uus and Utotem, and we attempted to have a band spread from coast to coast. We had a few concerts in 1990 and '91, one in LA with Utotem opening. As you can imagine, the logistics of rehearsing were formidable. We were still basically an obscure group without enough CD sales or name recognition to set up a profitable live tour. Being 6 pieces only made it worse. We were frustrated by the lack of progress on that front, and the band moved into a sort of hiatus, which eventually deteriorated into hibernation, especially after Bob became heavily involved in 5uus. In 1984-5 both Bob and Dave moved to Chris Cutler's farm in France to set up and operate an avant-rock oriented recording studio. And so TP as it had been, withered away, with two songs sitting "in the can," as we say. I continued to write some, and had a couple side projects. I even toured Europe with 5uus in 1995, but there was no viable way to reform the band.

It's been nine years since the release of In This Life, your last album prior to In Extremis. What was it like getting a line-up back together and recording an album after such a long layover? Did the band actually break up, or was it just a hiatus?

Mike Johnson: Well, when I was in Europe with 5uus I finally let go of the idea of resurrecting the band with Bob and Dave. I came back to the States and joined Dave Willey's band Hamster Theater. At some point it occurred to me that he could play bass in TP. I'd known him slightly since about 1989, and belatedly realized that he was musically brilliant and a very talented multi-instrumentalist, including bass guitar. I asked him if he'd like to try to record my bass parts and he consented. At some point not long afterwards he convinced me that his old friend Deborah Perry was just the person to sing for TP. Ironically, she had tried out for the band in 1989 after Susanne left for New York. We had thought we might be able to continue with a local singer, but somehow we decided that she wasn't quite ready. I also think we wanted to try to stick with the brilliant, if distant Susanne Lewis.

Deborah was (and is) living in Portland, Oregon, but by this time I realized that I had to cast my net much farther to find the people I needed. And Deborah, as it happened, reads music and is very disciplined about practicing and preparing on her own. She agreed to give it a shot. I brought her to Denver to record, and it was "cake", so to speak. I realized that I had stumbled onto a very special talent.

And as luck (or fate) would have it, Dave Kerman came back from France and settled in Denver. So, TP was in business again. Mark Harris was still on board for reeds, and I thought Shane Hotle would do the keys, but when crunch time came he was spending a lot of time on the road doing sound for "16 Horsepower", a local act that had gotten signed by a major label. He was able to do the tracks for two songs, "Maelstrom" and Kingdom Come - which we had actually started long before but had set aside, but then I had to look elsewhere. I managed to bring in Scott Braziel (Cartoon, PFS) with whom I'd toured in 5uus. He was able to do one piece, The "Aesthete", but that was all. So, again Dave Willey helped me out with a recommendation. Another friend of his, Kim Marsh, a classical pianist, came in to do "Dead Silence" and "Behold the Man". The keys for "This Weird Wind" had been performed in LA by Sunjay Kumar of 5uus way back in 1992. That was one of the songs we managed to do during the "hiatus." We had also already recorded "Les Etudes d'Organisme" which had originally been worked up as a live piece in 1990, then recorded and fancied up a bit when Bob was in LA.

So, as you can see, it was very complicated to pull together the personnel to record In Extremis, but it got done. I was pressed for time and elected to drop the whole thing on my old cohort Bob Drake for mixing. Amazingly, I didn't even go to France to be there for it. I placed my trust in his instincts and skill, and waited for the outcome. It took him about 10 days. The rest, as they say, is history, heh heh.

Once the CD was out and doing well, we pulled together to make a performing group again. I had a recommendation from a young bass player and music graduate of Eastman, Kaveh Rastegar, who is a kind of step-son of mine (his mom and I were together for years). He had a pal from Eastman, one Matt Mitchell, who:"is a monster":keyboard player, he told me. He could play anything and read music like thought. He was right. Matt joined the band one month before we went to ProgDay '99 and on tour afterwards, despite his living in Philadelphia. We actually had about 5 days of rehearsing with him. He pulled it off without a blink. Some day soon, this young man will be a force in the music world.

You mentioned in your email that you don't really consider yourselves "RIO", how would you classify yourselves, or is it even worth bothering? How do you guys feel you fit in to the current "progressive rock" scene, if at all?

Mike Johnson: I don't like the use of the term RIO ("Rock in Opposition") to describe anything challenging, experimental, rhythmically or harmonically complex, or otherwise not the same as 70's style progressive rock or the various derivatives of it. It describes nothing. The term comes from a festival from 20+ years ago, which I believe featured Henry Cow, Universe Zero, Etron Fou, Sammla, and others who played challenging music with various degrees of complexity, free improv, and what people like to call "dissonance", a concept I consider to be subjective. One man's noise is another's symphony.

The music nowadays crammed under the heading RIO is so incredibly varied and really wide-ranging, like Von Sammla or Nimal - very European, kind of zany with ethnic flavors; Universe Zero or Art Zoyd - a lot of classical and chamber influence as well as techno; 5uus - very cutting-edge rock with influences from prog rock, Zappa, 20th century classical, but most importantly, a certain flavor that is undeniably Dave Kerman - one cannot put it into words; the classics like Art Bears - this group combined folk music, minimalism, tape manipulation and studio experimentation, scratch and tap free-improv, modern tonalities, punk rock, mellotrons, fiddles, you name it. How can that fit under a heading with anything else? I think people need to try harder to differentiate. Find new ways to describe music. I always hear or read where someone says something like, "I was amazed to find that I liked it much better than I thought I could like RIO music." So who called "RIO." It wasn't me.

The first time I heard you guys was at NEARfest 2000, but being the first time hearing the band, my reaction was more "well, this is different" rather than actually finding a significant amount of pleasure in the music. What kind of a reception do you usually recieve live, and how do you feel your music translates into that environment?

Mike Johnson: Well, anymore when we play live, it is mainly to a very specific self-selecting group of pretty musically aware people. And though the audience may not be too large, they are general appreciative, or even very enthusiastic. At festivals like NEARFest or ProgDay, on the other hand, there is a preponderance of fans of more traditional prog rock, some of whom are open to what we're doing, but many of whom are not. Thus we tend to split the audience, some of them fleeing, some of them wrapped up in the music.

It is very difficult to translate the music into a live setting, primarily due to logistical limitations. The studio productions incorporate many performances and lots of produced sounds, which is difficult to do live with one guitar player, one reeds player, one bass player, etc. Also, the expense of traveling and the paucity of funds for this kind of music make it impossible to have our own sound crew, keyboard techs, etc. We have to do it all ourselves, which is an interesting challenge, but it will never sound as good as the CDs.

Do you think you're more of a "sit-down-and-listen-to-on-headphones" type of band, where the subtleties can be picked up on more? Being
that it probably takes quite a few listens to "get into" your stuff, are the live shows effective only in "preaching to the choir" so to speak, rather than converting new fans? How often do you play live?

Mike Johnson: I would say that if you see us live, you are going to have much more appreciation if you have listened a number of times to the music beforehand. I would say the same thing about any orchestra concert, or even a Genesis show (at least on from the early-mid 70s). Certainly, our art is that of creating music to be heard many times, which is obviously best and most easily done by listening to recordings.

We do not play often, for the logistical reasons I mentioned earlier, and live shows are not our primary means of connecting. You have to have a reputation from records to draw any kind of audience in the U.S. It's a bit better in Europe. Writing and recording is where the main focus is. Performing is a way to connect with people who've heard the records and want to see it live. It gives us direct feedback, and a sense of appreciation that is all too hard to get in this cultural environment. And of course, we do get some TP converts from live shows. But they get a much better idea what it's about by listening repeated to the CDs they hopefully buy at the shows.

You mentioned your love for 20th century classical music, and that influence that definitely comes through in the music. What do you feel are some especially influential compositions for you personally? Have you incorporated any of these techniques into your own music? If so, how?

Mike Johnson: If I have incorporated techniques, it would not be terribly consciously or specifically recognizable as such. It's mostly a matter of flavor or attitude, more than specific compositional techniques. I did have a little bit of technical theory training, but mainly have just been listening to stuff since I was a kid. Some of my favorites are Stravinsky's Le Sacre du Printemps (naturally - many people would site that piece), Shostakovich's symphonies, especially #s 8 and 10 (I love them all), William Schuman's Symphonies 3, 5, 7 and 8, Britten's Sinfonia da Requiem (one of the most beautiful pieces I know), Copland's Short Symphony and Organ Symphony, Barber's Essays for Orchestra, Prokofiev, Bartok, Bernstein, and many more older and newer composers - Raatavaura, Messian, Ligeti, Mayuzumi, Tipett, etc.

Having a fairly expanded ensemble for a "rock" group, how do you guys go about putting together songs? Do writers bring ideas to the group rehearsal in complete form, or are they just riffs? How much do you have to write down to make sure everyone is on the same page in playing such complex arrangements?

Mike Johnson: Usually, especially of late, I write most or all the music using actual notation in a scoring-sequencing software program. As the players live and support themselves in different parts of the country, I send them charts and tapes from which to learn new material. Then, if we are lucky (but not very often), we get together in different combinations to rehearse. Then we go into the studio one at a time with me producing - sometimes engineering. In the past, we did create some things as a group based on my outline - like "Etude for Combo", "Organism" and "Les Etudes d'Organism", and "This Weird Wind". On the first 3 records there are also songs written by other members which were usually learned individually or in small groups and then recorded. For In This Life, however, we did rehears as a band for a period of time to learn songs and solidify arrangements.

The only real band rehearsal happens when we prepare for live shows - after the recording usually. During rehearsals arrangements may be tweaked or messed with. Special "live" bits may be prepared, like our small ensemble version of an excerpt from Moonsongs.

What's going on in "Les Etudes D'Organism"? I've read that this is an adaptation of an earlier track, though I haven't actually heard it. Why did you feel the need to re-do it, and how did you come up with those insane carnival portions?

Mike Johnson: I wrote out a sketch for a kinda silly thing in 1985 and took it in to our rehearsal space where Bob Drake, Mark Fuller and Eric Moon messed with it, extrapolated it and "humorized" it for a solid week of rehearsing. Then we recorded it "live" in that old warehouse space. It became "Etude for Combo" on the Moonsongs record (1987). Then I wrote another piece called "Organism" in which I incorporated a brief motif from "Etude..." The band (the same guys and Susanne Lewis) fleshed it out in rehearsals and it appeared on the In This Life record (1989).

After that we acquired Dave Kerman as our drummer, and I thought it would be fun to create a special live arrangement of Organism in which we would expand and further "humorize" the material of both "Organism" and "Etude for Combo". Just for fun. So, during the course of another week of furious rehearsals we put together the main structure of "Les Etudes d'Organism" from my rough outlines and bits and chunks contributed by the other players.

The "insane carnival portions" you mention are just the result of our trying to have fun in a Spike Jones sort of way with various motifs we brought in. There's a silly circus-like section that I wrote that comes out of the Etude for combo motif. Then there's Bob's kinda Klesmer moment, followed by more twitchy silliness of mine. Then a re-appearance of the Etude theme, followed by derivations of my twitchy silliness, leading to a brief interjection of the organ fanfare from the old game show "Concentration"! This is followed by the "stupid ska" section with the roller rink organ, where some people are playing in different keys. And so on, and so on. You get the idea.

We played it live a number of times, featuring a really silly over-the-top bass guitar solo section in the middle - coming out of and returning to the "stupid ska" part. Later in the studio, that part was eliminated, other instruments and embellishments were added - mostly Bob Drake's doing - and then it was painstakingly mixed and remixed. The whole business was spread out over about 4 years. It almost didn't get released on the In Extremis record because it really didn't fit the CD. But so much work, and such high quality foolishness had to be made public. It turned out to be a favorite of "fans" and reviewers. Go figure:.

In Extremis is the band's fourth album. How do you think the group has progressed over the years? In retrospect, which albums do you see as your most successful?

Mike Johnson: The last, In Extremis, has been by far the most successful, I think because it was long-awaited, was very well made, and was released on a label, Cuneiform Records, that has a very well established reputation and distribution network. The accessibility of the internet - and the lack of corporate filtering thereof - have helped a great deal in publicizing that album.

In many ways the progression of Thinking Plague has been my progression as a composer, which is really the only constant in the band, what with shifting personnel and chemistry. Bob Drake's absence for the later phase of In Extremis cause the process to become very much my own - controlled and pushed by me. Previously there was more group involvement in the development of material, which was usually - but not necessarily - a very good thing. The first 2 records, A Thinking Plague and Moonsongs, have more improv and light-hearted experimentation. There was more playfulness - and frankly, less experience - in the recording process. They are less focussed, less serious and more "quirky" than the later two.

In This Life established a new more "avant-rock" or, as people tend to label it, "RIO" style. I think we achieved our highest state of artistic integration and synergy on that record, with strong collaboration between Bob Drake as main producer/engineer/trailblazer, Susanne Lewis as poet-lyricist/song-writer/visionary, and me as primary composer/musical director. It was very frustrating for me when right after we made that record, life's demands chose to pull the three of us apart geographically - Bob to LA, Susanne to New York City, and me staying in Denver. I think the two of them felt the need to develop their pure own musical voices - which they certainly did. I was content to further explore the possibilities of what we had found on In This Life. We tried that from a distance for several years, but it lost momentum. Three songs from In Extremis actually come from the period 1989 to 1993 - "This Weird Wind", "Les Etudes:", and "Kingdom Come". "Weird Wind" became a more progressive rock song in the absence of Susanne's very anti-prog tastes. "Kingdom Come" would have worked just fine with Susanne singing it, although I think Deborah Perry is the only person I know who could have and would have sung so well all the material she did on In Extremis.

So, I'd say that In Extremis has done the best in terms of promotion and sales, but In This Life may have been our best artistically integrated album. Although I have to say, Bob Drake's mixing of In Extremis gave it a surprising cohesiveness.

Where do you see progressive rock heading? There has been a recent resurgence thanks to bands like yourselves as well as festivals such as NEARfest, but do you think this momentum is sustainable?

Mike Johnson: From my perspective, the "momentum" you refer to is certainly not a tidal wave. Album sales are not such that most musicians working in the progressive or "avant" genre are gonna be quitting their day jobs real soon. In the "good ol days", 25-30 years ago, some very progressive groups were signed by some major labels of the time, and thus were distributed and publicized on a scale that no independent progressive label will probably ever do. Of course, in so doing, they accrued debt to or for the labels in amounts that we never ever get close to. I can make a record, from recording to manufacturing, for as little as $10,000, or maybe even less, as compared to the $500,000 that a major label might spend - not including videos or special promo stuff. There is no payola in our world and relatively little is spent (or available) for advertising. Our airplay is strictly college and community-supported radio, usually late at night or during once-a-week progressive programs.

On the other hand, the internet has allowed for a whole new level and type of outreach to people seeking new and different music. These folks have always been there, I believe, but until the internet came along there was no effective way to reach people on a worldwide basis without the big record deal. Thinking Plague had fans in the 80s, but they were few, and we rarely knew they existed or who they were. Nowadays, with online record services, such as Artists Shop, New Sonic Architecture, Forced Exposure and on and on, and the fan or enthusiast's sites like Giant Progweed and so many others, we now have a world-wide round-the-clock information and distribution capability that doesn't require the resources of a bloated corporation. It just takes the services of a dedicated independent label and the interest of human beings with access to the internet.

And so, to answer your question, I do think that this internet driven phenomenon is sustainable as long as people want to hear music outside of the narrow range of corporate owned pop music, which hopefully will be forever. And I'd like to think that given more exposure and options, more and more people will want to hear more and more musical exploration and innovation. As long as access to the internet is not controlled and filtered by Sony or BMG, this progressive wave of interest should only grow.

Do you think it's a little retrogressive for band's to be retreading areas that were already explored in the 70s, or is that what "progressive rock" has become anyway?

Mike Johnson: I do think that writing music that merely mimics the progressive music of the 70s is not being "progressive". Mere imitation goes against what it means to be progressive, in my mind. I understand from personal experience that one has to learn one's craft through imitation. Young musicians who weren't around in the 70s may need to make music in that vein in order to learn how it's done and to express their love for it. I had to do that:. a long time ago. In fact, you can still here some of that celebration of the 70s on In Extremis, but it's only a nod. For more experienced and skilled musicians who perhaps were around in those days, or have made a long investigation into it - and despite reputations and money made by deriving styles from Genesis and others - I believe they have an obligation to move on to greater things, if they want to be "progressive."

Innovation, originality, or at least further development and extrapolation are required. Thinking Plague is by nowhere near to being the most innovative or avant-garde musical group in this movement, if I can call it that. But we do strive to create music not consciously based on that of others, although influence is unavoidable and probably a necessary part of the evolution of music. It's what happens when we apply our own creativity and sensibilities that causes the originality to occur. In my compositions, I personally am not trying to just innovate and be as "out there" as possible. For me it's all about connecting to what are, at least for me, powerful, universal expressions - certain chordal nuances, themes, sonic environments and such that express - for me - deep emotions or suggest some kind of personal vision. And it just happens that my tastes and palette of musical ideas, as it were, fall into what people call progressive or "RIO".

Finally, what's on the horizon for Thinking Plague? It's been two years since In Extremis, which has been received by many as one of the finest albums of the decade. Anything new being recorded or composed?

Mike Johnson: Well, as you may know, last September, under the good auspices of Cuneiform Records, Bob Drake and I re-released our first two TP records, A Thinking Plague and Moonsongs, on a single CD entitled Early Plague Years. It has done well, and he and I are thrilled to have been able to finally make those out-of-print LPs again available in a very good-sounding format. Many people are hearing them for the first time, and they really sound much better than they ever did on vinyl.

Meanwhile, most of a new TP album is written and the band members are learning parts. It should be released on Cuneiform in May 2002 - sorry for the delay, but such is the nature of the production/manufacturing schedule of a small label. Also, admittedly, I take my time writing the stuff, and we all have other things going on.

Such as Hamster Theatre, which just released a new CD, Carnival Detournement, on Cuneiform. If you like Nimal, Sammla, eastern European music, Tom Waits (sans voice), and maybe Astor Piazzola, you might like this record. It's very interesting and progressive, but also "nice". HT is doing some performing - it's a very much live band - and are preparing to start on another record. I hope we'll get a chance to play Europe and/or do some festivals in North America. I'm also currently working on a record project with drummer/composer David Shamrock, who is a brilliant writer in somewhat the same vein of music as me. I hope Cuneiform will release it. If not, we get it out somewhere.

Meanwhile, Thinking Plague is looking into a Japanese tour, perhaps a proper European tour next year, festivals, etc. Oh, and you might be interested to know that Bob Drake and I are seriously considering doing an album together, just he and I. We'd like to use what we've learned over the years but go back to our more playful and experimental approach to recording. Such a record would not surface before maybe late 2002 or 2003.


I for one will be eagerly anticipating the (hopefully) impending Plague album, and we should all perhaps be on the lookout for the Mike Johnson/Bob Drake project as well as Hamster Theatre, as they both certainly sound interesting. We hope you enjoyed this interview as much as we did. Our utmost thanks to Mike Johnson for his thoughtful responses and taking the time out to do this with us.

- Greg Northrup, The Giant Progweed [May 2001]







Thinking Plague 'In Extremis'


Mike Johnson: guitars, synthesizers, sequenzing
David Kerman: drums and percussion
Mark Harris: saxes, clarinet, flute, bass clarinet
Deborah Perry: voice
Dave Willey: bass guitar, accordian
Shane Hotle: piano, synthesizers, mellotron
Bob Drake: bass guitar, voice, violin
with
Kirk Jameson: bass guitar
Kim Marsh: piano, synthesizers
Samjay Kumar: synthesizers
Scott Brazieal: piano, synthesizers
Mark Fuller: drums
Katie Cox: violins
M. Fitzmaurice: double bass and erhu
Rick Benjamin: trombone


http://www.cuneiformrecords.com/bandshtml/thinking.html

http://members.nbci.com/tplague/tp.html


Thinking Plague are at the forefront of a subsection of the progressive genre named 'Rock In Opposition' or 'RIO'. Described by some as a group of bands really 'pushing the envelope' others as unpleasant unmusical 'noise'.

The origins of RIO go back to bands like Henry Cow and White Noise. (White Noises album 'Electric Storm In Hell' is know, within BoA, as a particularly fine method of clearing guests at the end of parties).

The title, In Extremis, is Latin, meaning 'at the very point of death'. And, according to the notes, the songs delve into the feelings of fear, resignation and enlightenment, which result from one's realisation of the imminence of death. Heavy stuff:

1. Dead Silence

Anything but! 'Scat' female vocals random time signatures. The structure of symphonic rock is stretched to the boundaries.

2. Behold the Man

More of the same. Some parts could almost be Genesis but the music is severely haunting.

3. This Weird Wind

Male vocals. This could almost be Jon Anderson on a cosmic collision course with Robert Fripp. The best track so far. Imagine 'Olias of Sunhillow' meets something from Crimsons 'Beat'.

4. Les Etudes D'Organism

Perhaps Magmas American cousin, the more 'atonal' aspects of Gong. but a track that draws you in with its tight hypnotic beat. This track is just all over the place.

The album continues in the same way but if I'm honest I have lost the words,references and knowledge to express much more of this album on paper. In Extremis just has experienced aurally not secondhand visually.

The production quality and musicianship of this CD are simply stunning if not staggering. Where I stand in the 'is this music or just noise' debate I'm not sure.. I found the album highly intriguing, definitely challenging but I have to admit, mainly uncomfortable listening. But saying this, its an album I return to and I do highly recommend it to anyone that is seeking to expand their understanding of all that is 'progressive' within rock music.

Thinking Plague are on the American Cuniform label. A label that must be congratulated for giving a voice not only to such new experimental bands, but also for their faith in rescuing past forgotten genres such as BoA Fav's 'The Canterbury Scene'.

Ian Oakley February 2001